Personal Video Database
English => Support => Topic started by: cwdean on March 12, 2009, 06:26:34 pm
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Hello Everyone,
Many folks, including myself, have requested making a Wiki available to assist in supporting the Personal Video Database (PVD). Well, you’re suggestion have not fallen on deaf ears and I’m happy to report that the PVD-Wiki (http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php) is online, live and ready for use!
I’ve participated in several community support sites over the years, whether they be forums, blogs and/or wikis. I find them to be an effective way of promoting social awareness and support of the service being offered. A wiki will help to supplement the support already provided within the PVD Forums. Ultimately, the goal of the wiki should be a one-stop location for documentation and training purposes. Then, if something isn’t clear and you need additional assistance, definitely check out the PVD Official Forums.
The wonderful thing about programs that are freely available, like PVD, is that they promote a strong social community. People love to get involved in such projects; they feel a personal sense of satisfaction in knowing that they are contributing to a community of developers – or in the case of PVD, a community of users. Obviously, nostra is developing and supporting PVD as a labor of love. That’s an infectious feeling that is hard to ignore. :) Which is why I volunteered to create and support a PVD Wiki.
Both nostra and rick.ca believe in a community-driven support system (as do I). It fosters greater enthusiasm and support for PVD and ultimately leads to a much better product. Most users of PVD are here because it’s the best product of its kind. Most of you participate in the forums for that very same reason. So my hope is that you will use and contribute to the PVD Wiki for the same reason as well. Let’s make the Wiki an incredibly useful tool in supporting PVD and the PVD community. With your help and participation, I’m sure it will be so.
To find the PVD Wiki, click on the link below. Be sure to bookmark the site for future reference. And don’t forget, if you can’t find what you’re looking for in the Wiki, be sure to check the forums and ask. Then, if you think the answer (or subject) should be included in the Wiki, feel free to add it. ;D
http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php (http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php)
By the way, we welcome your suggestions/feedback on the Wiki…so don’t be shy. ;) Post your comments in this forum.
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To get the ball rolling and to serve as an example of how to add content to a Wiki, I’ve taken the liberty of creating some wiki pages (41 pages to be exact :)). Please feel free to review them. If you can contribute and improve a wiki page, please do so. If you feel a relevant PVD topic is missing, please add it. In other words, your contributions are more than welcome. Not only welcome, but really necessary to creating thorough, effective documentation for PVD.
The purpose of the PVD Wiki site is to create truly effective documentation for PVD. To that end, it must be:
- Relevant (i.e. up to date)
- Accurate (i.e. don’t guess, verify before posting)
- Thorough (i.e. it’s okay to start a topic as a placeholder, but please be sure to complete the entry in a timely manner)
Suggestions for good documentation:
- Include pictures and snapshots to illustrate your point
- Use step-by-step instructions if the topic warrants it
- Focus on one topic per page. If a page is related to another page, reference it. After all, that’s what a wiki is really good at.
Nobody’s looking for perfection. But we should strive to be as accurate and thorough as possible. So if you see something that could be improved upon, please indicate so (via comments, or whatever). Better yet, make the improvement yourself. Incremental improvements over time will make the end result a quality product.
And by all means, if you have suggestions or recommendations for improving the Wiki site as a whole, please let us know. Documenting an evolving program is a living process. The program will change over time and therefore, the documentation must also. Help us to make the PVD Wiki a useful tool by contributing so that everybody can benefit.
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WOW! You've done a fantastic job of getting the Wiki started. Thanks!
I can't think of anything to add to your introduction (OMG, I'm speechless?!). So, I'll just reiterate—this is all about building a strong social community in support of our common interest. I hope others will appreciate you are offering them not only a very useful reference, but a way to participate. I enjoy testing and trouble-shooting, but writing doesn't come easily. I can see from what you've done, however, writing or editing a wiki topic is an excellent way of walking through an issue or procedure. And it leaves something that others can easily benefit from—and improve.
I've noticed you've borrowed some of my posts for the Wiki—I encourage you to do so. And please feel free to clean them up to make them more readable and consistent with the writing style you've established. Maybe if I see more of those, I'll be encouraged to do so myself. Over time, I'd like to see everything in the Help Index (http://www.videodb.info/forum_en/index.php?topic=1189.0) covered in the Wiki.
A note to new users: I'm sure you will find the Wiki a very useful introduction and source of help for using PVD. But I also appreciate that when you have a problem or are stuck on something, 41 pages of information may not be what you need. Sometimes, having too much information or too many options (something PVD is particularly good at) is the cause of your difficulty. Please do not let the existence of the Wiki deter you from asking questions here.
Enough talk—let's get to work. The first order of business: Replace that ugly logo/banner! ;) We're obviously in dire need of assistance from someone with some (any?) artistic ability. I like the idea of using the distinctive PVD splash screen, but I can't figure out it might be employed as a banner (i.e., shorter and wider).
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To find the PVD Wiki, click on the link below. Be sure to bookmark the site for future reference. And don’t forget, if you can’t find what you’re looking for in the Wiki, be sure to check the forums and ask. Then, if you think the answer (or subject) should be included in the Wiki, feel free to add it. ;D
http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php (http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php)
nostra
How do you feel about having a wiki that is not at www.videodb.info and you don't have direct control of?
Advantages
It may solve a potential hosting problem of graphics files.
Leaves you to concentrate on continually improving PVD
Disadvantages
Sends users away from your site for support
Removes your direct veto power if something is published you take exception to (eg donate button, advertisements etc.)
Dilutes www.videodb.info
User name inconsistency between www.videodb.info and www.nimidia.com
A possible solution would be for cwdean to be an admin for a wiki part of www.videodb.info
But maybe there is no problem to solve, if you see more advantages than disadvantages.
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Nostra can speak for himself, but I don't think there's anything to be concerned about. In the short term, it may reduce traffic here, but it's a necessary and positive step in the development of the user community. When this was proposed and discussed privately, I expressed these concerns and more. With no disagreement or resistance on any side (that I could detect), nostra and I were given full administrator rights for the wiki, and it was agreed the full content of the wiki belongs to nostra. So if there ever is an issue (e.g., cwdean can no longer host/support it), the whole thing could be moved here or elsewhere.
That being said, I still think we need to do what we can to make the experience of using the two sites as seamless as possible. I think there are more challenges because the SMF and TikiWiki systems are quite different, than because it's a different site. Even if the software is similar and hosted by the same site, forums and wikis—even if well integrated—are quite different in nature and therefore "dilute" one-another. Perhaps a good illustration of this is the SMF Online Manual (http://docs.simplemachines.org/). Yes, it's nice how that ("docs") is integrated with the forum ("community") and has the same look and feel. But there's no concealing the fact they are two separate systems.
There's virtually no user administration functions happening at either site, so there's no administrative need for a common login. And only those who wish to contribute need to register. It would be helpful for user recognition of one another, however, if everyone used the same user name on both sites. Maybe all that's required is a request that users registering at the wiki site use their PVD username—although I don't see a way to do that. Are you listening, cwdean or Starlock or whatever your name is? ;D
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There's virtually no user administration functions happening at either site, so there's no administrative need for a common login. And only those who wish to contribute need to register. It would be helpful for user recognition of one another, however, if everyone used the same user name on both sites. Maybe all that's required is a request that users registering at the wiki site use their PVD username—although I don't see a way to do that. Are you listening, cwdean or Starlock or whatever your name is? ;D
I'm listening ;D Your point is well taken. I am now going by cwdean at both sites and would encourage the rest of the PVD community who wants to contribute on the Wiki to do the same. This will alleviate some confusion and make it easier for community members to get to know each other.
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For our international members, the PVD Wiki does support multiple languages and translations. Here's what you need to do (to the best of my knowledge, which is a bit limited, so if you have different experiences or learn more, please let us know) --
- There are some preset translation links at the bottom of the pages.
- There is a link to Babelfish at the bottom of every page as well to assist in page translations.
- You can select a language for the page being viewed via the drop-down language listbox at the top right-hand corner of the page. If your preferred language doesn't appear, you can select "Translate" and translate the page (this is fairly simple to do as the wiki software supports multiple languages natively). This only has to be done once. After that, the translated page will appear in the drop-down list box.
If a page has been translated to your preferred language (which you specify in your Preferences) it should automatically appear for you.
My default language is English...so I'm unable to test a lot of this. If you experience problems please let me know. As I'm helping administer the site, I will do my best to be accomodating to our international community members...but really need your help to do so. One way you can help is by translating pages to your preferred language as you view them. Thanks in advance for your assistance!
Looks like the PVD Wiki is off to a great start. ;D Special thanks to all of you who have assisted in creating and translating pages.
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How is this going over with our Russian friends? Perhaps we should have assumed they would feel the same about an English wiki as we would about a Russian. That is, fine—as long as it behaves/performs pretty much the same in our native language—otherwise—we may as well do our own. It appears they are actively translating your pages, so maybe they're happy. Since the wiki will maintain pages in multiple languages, I don't suppose that's the issue. But is the quality of the Russian interface acceptable?
A few things I've noticed...
When I log in, the Babelfish section disappears and is replaced with "Babelfish (debug): Fatal error."
The translation links don't include the option to translate to English. I suppose that's logical—it's recognizing the default language is English, so there should be no need to translate to English. But what if I want to translate a Russian page to see if there's something there I might want to add to the English page (I'm sure those guys have cool tips they're not sharing with us!). My workaround for this is to use the following bookmarklet to send the page to Google Translate.
javascript:location='http://translate.google.com/translate?u=' + encodeURIComponent(location);
My default language is English...so I'm unable to test a lot of this.
Hopefully, there will soon be new pages in Russian only that we will need to translate into English. That should give us some idea. The part we can't experience is the quality of the Russian (or other non-English) interface. BTW, if one doesn't understand English, how do they register and change the interface language to their own? Maybe changing the default language to Russian for a time would make a good test. ;)
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I do not know about the UI (but I'll test it later), but some users got error messages while trying to translate certain pages and some texts seem to be untranslatable. Never the less it seems like the idea of creating a Wiki liked both English and Russian users.
Hopefully, there will soon be new pages in Russian only that we will need to translate into English.
I am sure they will.
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But is the quality of the Russian interface acceptable?
A very good question, but unfortunately one that I cannot respond to without feedback from our Russian friends. I suspect it will be personal tastes, but if something simply isn't working I need to know about it in order to attempt to fix it :)
When I log in, the Babelfish section disappears and is replaced with "Babelfish (debug): Fatal error."
This happened to me once before as well, so I turned the feature off. When I turned it back on the other day, it seemed to work fine for me. I am no longer getting that error message. I don't know what I changed to fix it for me. I'll look at it some more in depth and see what I can find. Thanks for pointing this out to me.[/quote]
The translation links don't include the option to translate to English. I suppose that's logical—it's recognizing the default language is English, so there should be no need to translate to English.
I believe that is how it works. Since the default language on the site is English, it assumes that the initial page is in English (thus the English page in the drop-down listbox). You can change the language of the page from the Translate page (for initial pages that are not written in English).
But what if I want to translate a Russian page to see if there's something there I might want to add to the English page (I'm sure those guys have cool tips they're not sharing with us!). My workaround for this is to use the following bookmarklet to send the page to Google Translate.
javascript:location='http://translate.google.com/translate?u=' + encodeURIComponent(location);
Great tip. I'll see if I can add this bookmarklet as a custom menu item.
BTW, if one doesn't understand English, how do they register and change the interface language to their own? Maybe changing the default language to Russian for a time would make a good test. ;)
Good question. I'll have to check into that. If I recall correctly (and I'll double-check this evening) I think you specify your preferred language while completing your profile after validating your e-mail address (upon sign-up). But I also think that Tiki reads your preferred language from your browser and displays pages according to that setting. Again, kind of hard for me to test ;)
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I do not know about the UI (but I'll test it later), but some users got error messages while trying to translate certain pages and some texts seem to be untranslatable. Never the less it seems like the idea of creating a Wiki liked both English and Russian users.
And Rick noticed that BabelFish was throwing an error for him. It seems to be working for me, so it's definitely something I'll be looking into.
It's probably to be expected that some terms may not be understood by a particular language dictionary. In those cases, we'll need to rely on our international friends to help with the proper translations (i.e. manual translation).
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I've made several changes/improvements to the PVD Wiki web site (located at http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php (http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php)) in order to make it easier to use for our international (and other) community members. Changes include:
- added a Site Language listbox that will allow you to dynamically change the language of the site (temporarily overrides your preferred language)
- added Online users listbox so that visitors will know who is currently online (to make collaborating easier) :)
- added the Shoutbox feature to assist with collaborative communications (i.e. near real-time communications)
- added a "Send a link" feature so that pages can be easily sent to friends
Hope these improvements make the site easier to use. I'll be looking at other ways to improve the site, but if you have any specific needs or features that you'd like for us to consider please let us know.
-cwdean-
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added a Site Language listbox that will allow you to dynamically change the language of the site (temporarily overrides your preferred language)
This is very good, thx
cwdean, is it possible to make UI look more like Wikipedia? I have got a number of complaints about wiki design from our users...
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cwdean, is it possible to make UI look more like Wikipedia? I have got a number of complaints about wiki design from our users...
I'll see what I can do. I know that Tiki supports themes but haven't played with them much. I don't know if they'll provide the look-and-feel of Wikipedia though, as all of the functionalities of Tiki are highly integrated (which is one of the main featueres of Tiki that separates it from other wiki solutions) and therefore does impose some required structure around it's layout. But perhaps the themes can add at least a more pleasing interface. I believe that themes can even be selected on a per-user basis. Anyway, I'll definitely see what our options are. ;D
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I am now going by cwdean at both sites...
Is there a story behind your avatar? It looks a lot like a "Starlock" to me. ;D
added a Site Language listbox that will allow you to dynamically change the language of the site
That's better!
added Online users listbox so that visitors will know who is currently online
Hope you don't mind... I moved that so it appears above the Shoutbox—so we know who we're shouting at. ;)
When I log in, the Babelfish section disappears and is replaced with "Babelfish (debug): Fatal error."
Changing my language preference from Default to English seems to have resolved this. If you can determine that only admins are affected, it's probably safe to ignore the matter.
The Babelfish options appear to be "fixed," in that they don't adapt to language preference. So there's no translation to English.
I should point out, BTW, this feature just translates the entire page using an external service. It must be quite apart from the function of translating a page into another language. I haven't actually tried that, but I assume that's fully integrated—text is translated and tags are preserved, etc.
cwdean, is it possible to make UI look more like Wikipedia? I have got a number of complaints about wiki design from our users...
It's difficult to believe anyone just casually wants something that is not MediaWiki to look like Wikipedia. Are the complaints not really about the selection of software? Perhaps you could diplomatically explain a wiki is finally happening because cwdean volunteered to take it on. Obviously, he has chosen to use the software he is comfortable with and prefers. This doesn't mean others are not "right" in preferring something else. They might, however, try to cooperate in giving TikiWiki a fair trial.
If it really is just a "look & feel" issue, maybe we could try the Tikipedia (http://themes.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=Tikipedia) theme. Although I appreciate what cwdean is saying, and would be surprised if this were easy to implement.
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It's difficult to believe anyone just casually wants something that is not MediaWiki to look like Wikipedia. Are the complaints not really about the selection of software? Perhaps you could diplomatically explain a wiki is finally happening because cwdean volunteered to take it on. Obviously, he has chosen to use the software he is comfortable with and prefers. This doesn't mean others are not "right" in preferring something else. They might, however, try to cooperate in giving TikiWiki a fair trial.
In fact there are people who do not like UI only and there some that suggest to use another Wiki engine. One of them has already a DokuWiki set up. I think that there is no 100% solution, but Tikiwiki seem pretty powerful to me and I am sure if we can make it look better people will automatically get a better impression of it.
The Tikipedia theme looks just perfect. Can we apply it cwdean?
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One of them has already a DokuWiki set up.
Oh, well. Maybe the competition will help. :-\
Hmmm... Maybe that's why Reset is cranking-out page translations at an astonishing rate! ;D
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Oh, well. Maybe the competition will help. Undecided
Yeah, that's funny: there was no sign of manuals for a long time and now there are two wikis to choose. :o
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Hope you don't mind... I moved that so it appears above the Shoutbox—so we know who we're shouting at. ;)
Don't mind at all. That's why you're an admin. ;)
Changing my language preference from Default to English seems to have resolved this. If you can determine that only admins are affected, it's probably safe to ignore the matter.
The Babelfish options appear to be "fixed," in that they don't adapt to language preference. So there's no translation to English.
I should point out, BTW, this feature just translates the entire page using an external service. It must be quite apart from the function of translating a page into another language. I haven't actually tried that, but I assume that's fully integrated—text is translated and tags are preserved, etc.
Seems to be working for me as well, and for the test account...so I think it's fixed...unless somebody tells me otherwise.
The way that Tiki works is that you have the ability to support internal and external translation, i.e. external translating via external services such as Google or BabelFish, and internal translating where you translate the page and save it in the database. Internal translation is the preference as it provides greater flexibility and direct control of the page content. External translation is fine for quick views of pages but is limited by how accurate the service may be. Thus Tiki supports both.
With that said, internal translation is what we should be focusing on because it will allow our clients to benefit directly from community contributions. Once a page is translated, it resides in the database and all our clients need to do is set their preferred language accordingly.
It's difficult to believe anyone just casually wants something that is not MediaWiki to look like Wikipedia. Are the complaints not really about the selection of software? Perhaps you could diplomatically explain a wiki is finally happening because cwdean volunteered to take it on. Obviously, he has chosen to use the software he is comfortable with and prefers. This doesn't mean others are not "right" in preferring something else. They might, however, try to cooperate in giving TikiWiki a fair trial.
If it really is just a "look & feel" issue, maybe we could try the Tikipedia (http://themes.tikiwiki.org/tiki-index.php?page=Tikipedia) theme. Although I appreciate what cwdean is saying, and would be surprised if this were easy to implement.
I agree with you Rick. I support commercial applications in my profession and it's considered best practice to minimize customizations as much as possible. Otherwise, future upgrades become a real challenge. If we can find an existing theme that will meet our needs, that's the approach I would recommend. It seems like Tikipedia is worth looking at, and there may be one or two others that are suitable as well. I just tried to install and take a look at the Tikipedia theme and I got an error...so I will look into that further this evening (I think it's a security issue with a folder).
As with all "new" software, it takes a little time to learn the interface and get comfortable with it. :)
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In fact there are people who do not like UI only and there some that suggest to use another Wiki engine. One of them has already a DokuWiki set up. I think that there is no 100% solution, but Tikiwiki seem pretty powerful to me and I am sure if we can make it look better people will automatically get a better impression of it.
The Tikipedia theme looks just perfect. Can we apply it cwdean?
I think people have a preference for they are comfortable or familiar with. The functionality of Tiki is very similar to other wiki implementations, so I agree that most issues are probably with the look&feel. But as I mentioned in another post, working with any "new" software package takes time to get familiar with the interface and functionality. With time, I'm hopeful that others will appreciate what Tiki has to offer. And if not, we'll look to a different solution :)
Tikiwiki is very powerful and the breadth of integration is really impressive. Right now, it is fully functionality as a wiki and should more than adequately meet our needs.
I'll work on implementing the Tikipedia theme this evening.
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Oh, well. Maybe the competition will help. :-\
Hmmm... Maybe that's why Reset is cranking-out page translations at an astonishing rate! ;D
My only concern is it may be diverting resources from contributing to a comprehensive solution, and perhaps cause some confusion for our clients (i.e. which wiki am I supposed to go to?). I don't want to undermine the effort of the other wiki...but having two wikis doesn't seem practical to me. Just my opinion. :-\
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Having two wikis is definitely not practical. The other wiki is installed and partially set up, but it is not filled with information. I think we'll see what comes out of the new Tiki customizations first. I'll also spend some time investigating features of both wikis and decide which one is the best for PVD.
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Having two wikis is definitely not practical.
The issue is bigger than that. I've always been amazed that you're able to service two user groups, making each feel they are "it"—to the point of each forgetting the other exists. But what's happening now is clearly a symptom of this "two worlds" approach. One of the most important purposes of a user-created-and-maintained wiki was to remove that burden from you. Now you're slipping toward the role of referee between groups of feuding geeks who can't even talk to each other.
You might hope this will be resolved by your decision as to which wiki to use. But I think there are two better choices. One is to continue with the "two worlds" approach, and let each user group do its own thing. The other is to find some way to get the two groups communicating, and ask them to work out their differences. I prefer the second approach, especially considering building a truly international wiki reminds us all our "world" is not the only one, and gets everyone focused on communication/translation issues.
I have to wonder... If we were one group using one forum in one language, would the result be the same? I don't think so. I can't imagine anyone reading cwdean's introduction to the wiki and responding, "Bullshit! Your engine sucks, your site is slow and your wiki will never be what I want it to be—so I'm going to make my own! BTW, may I have your content?" But that's not what happened. As far as I can tell, the Russian group was not given that introduction, nor were they given an opportunity to discuss the implementation of a wiki ahead of time. Neither were users here, but that's beside my point ;) —which is this situation could have been avoided with a little trust and communication.
Now I don't know if this line of reasoning is going anywhere near a practical solution. I certainly do not want you spending any time on it (BTW, when will 0.9.9 be finished?). But perhaps there's a user who is fluent in Russian and English who would be willing to facilitate some communication between the two groups. They could be a moderator of a forum in which they provide a translation of each message. I don't know if this is an option in SMF, but it might be the type of forum where nothing is posted until it is "approved" by the moderator (in this case, in order to add the translation). It would also be nice if SMF could be configured to display or mirror one forum on the two boards. Otherwise, the moderator would have to repost all original messages to the other forum. A moderator could easily be overwhelmed with this sort of arrangement. But it might work if there were limits placed on topics discussed, and perhaps on the number of posts (although requiring moderator approval would put a damper on that).
Now here's an irony: Another long-winded post for you to deal with when you should be coding. Maybe you can Google Translate it, post it on the Russian board, and let them deal with it. ;D
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Having two wikis is definitely not practical.
The issue is bigger than that. I've always been amazed that you're able to service two user groups, making each feel they are "it"—to the point of each forgetting the other exists.
...
Maybe you can Google Translate it, post it on the Russian board, and let them deal with it. ;D
Very interesting.
IMO there are two choices
1) Maintain 2 communities, in which case both should look at establishing their own Wiki.
2) Integrate both communities, in which case all posts need to be automatically translated from the authors language to other supported languages, both on the PVD forums & the Wiki.
The later seams preferable to me but that is going to take significant input from nostra to achieve, so maybe overall I would prefer a continuation of two separate communities until 0.9.9 is stable. At which time the forums could be integrated and the wiki moved to www.videodb.info
In the mean time, I just found a new support forum for PVD ;D ;D
http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.videodb.info%2Fforum_ru%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Dforum&sl=ru&tl=en&history_state0=
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The issue is bigger than that.
Looks like I've somehow stirred up a hornet's nest. :'(
Causing a fracture amongst the PVD community was not my intent, nor the intent of the PVD Wiki. And lack of communication wasn't my intent either. The whole purpose of the wiki is to pull the community together in order to collaborate on documentation. Several of you have really embraced this intent, while others have not. It really shouldn't matter what language a page is in...if it isn't in your preferred language then take a moment to translate it. You don't even have to know the page language to run it through Google Translate or Babelfish to translate it to your preferred language. Copy and paste that output into the PVD Wiki and you're done. The only reason I don't automatically do this for the community is becuase I only know English and have no means to validate the accuracy of the Google or BabelFish translation. But perhaps that isn't a big deal. Anybody could run the page through translation and post the output to the appropriate language page (patch illustated this in his post).
And the choice of Wiki software shouldn't matter either. It either works as a wiki or it doesn't. The debate of the best software to use is very subjective, non-productive and is likely never to end. The reason I chose TikWiki is because of it's feature-set and tight functional integration. With the flip of one configuration option, I can turn on Forums, Articles, Blogs, File Galleries, Photo Galleries, etc. -- and each feature set is complete and fully integrated with every other feature set. Right now, the only requirement is the need for a Wiki...so that is all that is turned on (and file gallery). But as the community evolved I wanted to be prepared to support it.
The ultimate decision is up to Nostra. I'd really like to see the community focus on developing and translating wiki pages and content, rather than debating about which wiki software is better.
And for my international friends, I'm terribly sorry if I've somehow alienated you by posting only English language pages. It took me a few days to figure out how to configure all of Tiki's multilanguage support features. And I was really counting on our multi-lingual members to assist with translating pages. I might point out as well that there are now more non-English pages than there are English pages...so somebody out there doesn't mind translating and adding pages (thanks Reset!) ;D
Again, I'm open to suggestions for improving the site if you have any ideas. As requested, I've implemented the Tikipedia theme so that the site looks more like a Wikipedia site for those that are more comfortable with that layout.
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I've added a wiki page called "How to translate Wiki pages" (http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php?page=How+to+translate+Wiki+pages&bl=y (http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php?page=How+to+translate+Wiki+pages&bl=y)) to help provide guidance on translating wiki pages. This link is accessible from the HomePage.
Hope this is helpful. :)
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In the mean time, I just found a new support forum for PVD.
Trying to read and understand such a translation seems to demonstrate...
all posts need to be automatically translated
...is not feasible. Unless your goal is to start WWIII. ;)
is going to take significant input from nostra to achieve
...which is completely counter-productive. This is something for the user community to resolve—with a primary objective being to relieve an over-worked and under-paid developer of the responsibility so he can focus on... development.
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Looks like I've somehow stirred up a hornet's nest.
Hey, we're movie buffs. Today it's drama, tomorrow it's comedy... :( :D
As for the rest of your post, I agree completely. I appreciate both your intent, and all the effort you've put into this.
I'm not sure about the Tikipedia theme (except for the logo, of course ;) )—while more pleasing overall, I wonder if it will be more difficult because the details don't stand out as well. How do you find it from a maintenance point-of-view? Are all the same features there? Does it require a lot of things to be changed so it works?
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The other is to find some way to get the two groups communicating, and ask them to work out their differences.
....
But perhaps there's a user who is fluent in Russian and English who ... provide a translation of each message. I don't know if this is an option in SMF, but it might be the type of forum where nothing is posted until it is "approved" by the moderator (in this case, in order to add the translation).... A moderator could easily be overwhelmed with this sort of arrangement. But it might work if there were limits placed on topics discussed, and perhaps on the number of posts (although requiring moderator approval would put a damper on that).
While this approach maybe adaptable to a Wiki where posts are mostly of high value, it is contrary to the requirements of an online forum. IMO an online forum thrives on people asking dumb questions, if asked once there is usually someone more experienced who offers a helpful response, if repeatedly asked it highlights an interface issue which the more experienced have become blind to.
As such most posts on the forum are not worth translating but everyone having a feel for the issues being discussed across the entire PVD community, and feeling free to ask stupid questions is extremely valuable.
In the mean time, I just found a new support forum for PVD.
Trying to read and understand such a translation seems to demonstrate...
all posts need to be automatically translated
...is not feasible. Unless your goal is to start WWIII. ;)
On this we disagree.
I agree reading the translated forum feels foreign, but that is only to be expected given I just walked into a forum with
Members: 1864 • Posts: 5218 • Topics: 331
Rather than the one I was familiar with
Members: 1116 • Posts: 3727 • Topics: 588
Clearly it would be expected to take some time to recognise the contributors knowledge / personality and the issues addressed by the community.
However looking through the posts I do get a fairly good impression of the issues being discussed and who writes constructive post.
is going to take significant input from nostra to achieve
...which is completely counter-productive. This is something for the user community to resolve—with a primary objective being to relieve an over-worked and under-paid developer of the responsibility so he can focus on... development.
On this we partly agree. nostra can delegate to the degree he is comfortable with but should still be in control. Unfortunately management takes time even when well set up and your workers are keen.
The interface I would like to see is a multilingual forum and Wiki. I should be able to specify my language and all posts and Wiki pages should be displayed in my native language (with the option to view the untranslated post at the click of a button).
Within the forum environment that would mean an untranslated thread could have posts in many languages, but all would be machine translated to each users native language.
With in the Wiki environment a combination of machine and human translation is appropriate as the posts are inherently of higher value. I would like to see a human translation of the current version of each wiki page when available.If not a machine translated version of the most recent issue of the page or the last human translated English version of the page (toggle between).
The reason I chose TikWiki is because of it's feature-set and tight functional integration. With the flip of one configuration option, I can turn on Forums, Articles, Blogs, File Galleries, Photo Galleries, etc. -- and each feature set is complete and fully integrated with every other feature set. Right now, the only requirement is the need for a Wiki...so that is all that is turned on (and file gallery). But as the community evolved I wanted to be prepared to support it.
cwdean could TikWiki support the type of interface I have described. Alternatively are you or someone else aware of software that could. If software was available which would assist in bringing the communities together, then perhaps nostra may choose to delegate the upgrade to the PVD forum (& Wiki).
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While this approach maybe adaptable to a Wiki where posts are mostly of high value, it is contrary to the requirements of an online forum.
My suggestion is in no way intended to address the "requirements of an online forum." It is for one special-purpose forum (among the many on the board). Its sole purpose would be to provide a communication link between the two groups.
However looking through the posts I do get a fairly good impression of the issues being discussed and who writes constructive post.
You've already demonstrated a method for translating foreign-language web pages so you can read them. I agree, one can get a vague idea of what is being discussed. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I find it difficult to imagine machine-translation facilitating actual communication between participants of different languages—especially on technical issues. Can you provide examples of software-support forums that work this way?
nostra can delegate to the degree he is comfortable with but should still be in control. Unfortunately management takes time even when well set up and your workers are keen.
Effective management has nothing to do with control or time. The best possible situation nostra could wish for is a healthy, vibrant user community that takes care of itself.
Within the forum environment that would mean an untranslated thread could have posts in many languages, but all would be machine translated to each users native language.
Okay, maybe I can imagine this—on the basis there are always many conversations going on, and users already decide which ones they want to participate in. So if one chooses not to participate in a Russian conversation because they're unsure of the translation, that's no different than not participating because it's too technical, or simply not a topic of interest.
So if that is a viable option, all the more reason we should try to establish a dialog between the two groups.
However... it doesn't look like SMF offers a solution. I was searching their forum—without luck—and then came across the Language Specific Support (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?board=12.0) section of their forum. This is a collection of child forums for different languages. If that's how they handle multiple languages, I doubt SMF will do it your way.
I would like to see a human translation of the current version of each wiki page when available. If not a machine translated version of the most recent issue of the page or the last human translated English version of the page (toggle between).
The TikiWiki designers apparently agree with me—machine translation is not an effective substitute for human translation. In keeping with the very nature and purpose of a wiki, users are expected to add pages in their own language. Even if understandable, the existence of machine-generated page would discourage them from doing so. They can, however, almost instantly view a machine translation of a page in the editor—where, of course, they are expected to "clean it up" for the benefit of other users of their language. Our wiki already has all the pages written by cwdean translated into Russian.
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Effective management has nothing to do with control or time. The best possible situation nostra could wish for is a healthy, vibrant user community that takes care of itself.
www.videodb.info has a donations button which I guess covers the cost of providing the facility to download the software. As such we all have a vested interest in maintaining this functionality.
Nostra has put an extraordinary amount of work in creating and supporting PVD. If I was him I would want to maintain control over how it was presented to the public, which would mean I would want to investigate any major change to the forum prior to it being implemented. My point is only that these things take time.
On another subject.
Is it possible to put a link to the Wiki contents page from the home page http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php?page=PVD-Manual&structure=PVD-Manual
I believe this is a system generated / maintained page. It does appear to be incomplete though as many more pages are listed here http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-listpages.php Not sure what determines if a pages is added to the contents or not.
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If I was him I would want to maintain control over how it was presented to the public...
That's fine, and he will always be the ultimate authority. But expecting the exercise of that control will have any particular positive outcome is like expecting to be able to herd cats. Cats, however, can be led. But I'm not even suggesting it's up to nostra to lead. This is his hobby, which I assume he expects to enjoy without undue stress, and it hopefully comes after his family, friends and real job. Perhaps the most important leadership should coming from the users—to ensure we are collectively acting in a way that ensures our developer is not overwhelmed with things that need to be "controlled," and is having too much fun to ever wonder whether his efforts are worthwhile.
Not sure what determines if a pages is added to the contents or not.
That's an optional feature cwdean is working on. The layout of pages in the form of a manual (or book or whatever) has to be configured manually. All the system can do is put the pages in alphabetic order (or hits, date modified, etc).
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I think we'll stick with current forum engine and TikiWiki for now. The Wiki is getting better all the time. The only thing that makes me worry a little bit is that the server seems to be pretty slow :(
Never the less I am open for any suggestions on improving forums and/or Wiki. I like the idea of having everything in one place, so if someone will find a nice solution of this task then, please, let me know.
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The only thing that makes me worry a little bit is that the server seems to be pretty slow
It seems "normal" to me. But it's geographically close to me and far from you. Might that be it? Come to think of it, I experience regular slow downs and time-outs with this site. Maybe having two locations is a good way to achieve a global balance. ;)
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Looks like I've somehow stirred up a hornet's nest.
Hey, we're movie buffs. Today it's drama, tomorrow it's comedy... :( :D
So true ;D
As for the rest of your post, I agree completely. I appreciate both your intent, and all the effort you've put into this.
I'm not sure about the Tikipedia theme (except for the logo, of course ;) )—while more pleasing overall, I wonder if it will be more difficult because the details don't stand out as well. How do you find it from a maintenance point-of-view? Are all the same features there? Does it require a lot of things to be changed so it works?
My pleasure. I think we're well on our way to figuring this out. The Tikipedia theme has been online this last Friday. All I had to do was install the Tikipedia theme (took about a minute) and change one configuration setting in the Wiki to turn it on. That was about it. No maintenance involved whatsoever (unless we find a bug while using, which is always possible with software ;) ). But so far everything seems to be working fine.
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cwdean could TikWiki support the type of interface I have described. Alternatively are you or someone else aware of software that could. If software was available which would assist in bringing the communities together, then perhaps nostra may choose to delegate the upgrade to the PVD forum (& Wiki).
Patch, TikiWiki is actually working just the way you described right now :) The software fully supports multiple languages and a user can toggle between any translated page at will. Translation is primarily human driven in order to promote the most useful and accurate content. You can use an external translator such as Babel Fish or Google Translate, but those are supplementary services for when a translated page doesn't exist. It's anticipated that the community will translate a page when needed. And once translated appears along with all translated pages in the Language drop-down list. Also, if a page has been translated in your preferred language, it will automatically appear when navigating the wiki. So I think this behavior is exactly what you were looking for (or describing).
I did some research on translating wiki pages and pretty much every wiki software program works this way. The implementation may be different, but the expectation that the community will translate pages is the same.
Also, TikiWiki fully supports integrated Forums...i.e. with full multi-language support as well. This isn't a current requirement, so it's not turned on...and it's completely notra's call when and if he even wants to integrate the two feature sets. I think the intent is to see how the Wiki goes and to let it mature for a while before even considering such a move (which makes sense to me :) ). But PVD Wiki can support the move when and if nostra is ready.
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Is it possible to put a link to the Wiki contents page from the home page http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php?page=PVD-Manual&structure=PVD-Manual
I believe this is a system generated / maintained page. It does appear to be incomplete though as many more pages are listed here http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-listpages.php Not sure what determines if a pages is added to the contents or not.
Hi patch,
Actually the PVD-Manual isn't really system generated...which is why it's incomplete :) It is using a feature of the wiki software called Structures which allows one to create a layout of wiki pages so that they are structured (i.e. like a book, etc). It isn't hard to do, but does take some time...which is why it's incomplete right now. You basically tell the structure what order the relationship of pages should appear in. This way you can navigate pages in that order (like a book). You can specify indentation in order to group like pages (like a chapter) and the Table of Contents will reflect this.
It's a cool feature. I just need to finish it ;D By the way, I can give permissions for anybody to add pages to the structure. I was reluctant to do this at first, for fear of the structure somehow getting messed up (it requires some planning and may not be all that intuitive). But perhaps I should make it available to all registered users, or at least a select few. What do you think?
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No maintenance involved whatsoever...
That's good news. Except if users want it changed again, you can't plead "too much trouble." ;)
I don't know if the theme is at fault, it looks like there's a glitch with numbering in the "top users" module.
Also, TikiWiki fully supports integrated Forums...i.e. with full multi-language support as well.
I would be concerned forums at the Wiki would reduce activity here. But there may be use for this—facilitating communication between the two user groups. I've been looking for SMF solution, but haven't found one. I asked about inter-forum posting (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=300061.0) in the SMF Forum, and the response so far suggests that if there is a solution, it's not an obvious one. Maybe we should establish one simple forum at the Wiki—for the limited purpose of discussing all things wiki. It would serve a purpose we can't fill here, and would provide a demonstration of a different kind of forum—for consideration of options for the future.
But perhaps I should make it available to all registered users, or at least a select few. What do you think?
I think it unlikely anyone is going to spontaneously help with something like that, just because they have permission to do so. As you point out, even if someone wanted to help, they would have to be concerned about messing up your structure. If you want help, it would probably be more effective to ask for it, then give permission and instructions to those who step forward. It would be a good task for your yet-to-be-named Assistant Editor-in-Chief. ;)
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No maintenance involved whatsoever...
That's good news. Except if users want it changed again, you can't plead "too much trouble." ;)
I don't know if the theme is at fault, it looks like there's a glitch with numbering in the "top users" module.
Good point ;) Forget I even said anything...is that even possible? ;D
I would be concerned forums at the Wiki would reduce activity here. But there may be use for this—facilitating communication between the two user groups. I've been looking for SMF solution, but haven't found one. I asked about inter-forum posting (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=300061.0) in the SMF Forum, and the response so far suggests that if there is a solution, it's not an obvious one. Maybe we should establish one simple forum at the Wiki—for the limited purpose of discussing all things wiki. It would serve a purpose we can't fill here, and would provide a demonstration of a different kind of forum—for consideration of options for the future.
It may...my suggestion was mostly as an inform in order to learn (experience) more about how the forums in TikiWiki work. But your point is worth considering...a forum to specifically support the wiki could be set up and then community feedback could help nostra with future support decisions.
I think it unlikely anyone is going to spontaneously help with something like that, just because they have permission to do so. As you point out, even if someone wanted to help, they would have to be concerned about messing up your structure. If you want help, it would probably be more effective to ask for it, then give permission and instructions to those who step forward.
Another good point. I was reconsidering after I suggested the idea. It really would be too much work for more than one person to try to support (without stepping on each other). However, asking for a volunteer to create a like structure in Russian would be most appreciated :) I can ask for such assistance after I've finished Version 1 of the PVD-Manual. Anyway, it's not even done and it's getting attention :)
It would be a good task for your yet-to-be-named Assistant Editor-in-Chief. ;)
Now there's a promising thought ;D Anybody in particular you have in mind?
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I don't know if the theme is at fault, it looks like there's a glitch with numbering in the "top users" module.
I just checked into this. It isn't a problem with the theme. It's an acknowledged bug in TikiWiki that needs to be fixed. It's mostly an aesthetic problem, that's why I've gone ahead and left it visible. Thanks for catching (noticing) this though.
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asking for a volunteer to create a like structure in Russian would be most appreciated
You see? If we had a multilingual forum, you could do that. 8)
Anybody in particular you have in mind?
Yes. That guy right there. The one who's lurking, but hasn't yet made up his mind. We've got his IP address, of course, but we should be polite and wait for him to volunteer. ;)
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(http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/img/tiki/PVD_logo_new.gif)
So is there a story behind the new logo? Is that a wave, or spermatozoon doing a somersault? ???
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It's just me playing with Paint.NET. Unfortunately my graphics design knowledge is not enough to create smth better that this, but this logo is still better than the previous one...
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If you were a graphic designer, you'd make up a story—and then charge yourself a $10,000 fee. ;)
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So I am the same graphic design as businessmen. :-\
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You just don't appreciate how easy it is...
1. Make up a story about the logo.
2. Incorporate.
3. Offer shares to the public.
The story has to be a very good one, of course. Perhaps something about seeing the future. Back it up with a plugin that gets information about movies not yet made. ;)
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asking for a volunteer to create a like structure in Russian would be most appreciated
You see? If we had a multilingual forum, you could do that. 8)
I think I'll go ahead and turn Forums on in order to provide direct support for PVD Wiki...unless I hear any objections ;)
I've been working closely with Reset on multi-lingual (Russian) support and it would be more efficient to do so via a Forum rather than via internal system emails and Shoutbox messages. This way it would be easier to elaborate on the details and give other users an opportunity to see what is going on and provide additional support if they are so inclined.
The Forum will be specific to PVD Wiki support and I will be sure to indicate this in the first sticky post.
-cwdean
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The Forum will be specific to PVD Wiki support and I will be sure to indicate this in the first sticky post.
If a discussion strays from Wiki support, I suggest you simply "move" it to the appropriate forum here. That is, start a topic here quoting the relevant dialog, and then post a "Moved to PVD forum" link to the Wiki topic. The obvious exception to this rule would be where the forum is necessarily being used to facilitate a discussion between users of different languages. In that case, it might be appropriate to post invitations to join the discussion to the English and Russian PVD forums.
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The Forum will be specific to PVD Wiki support and I will be sure to indicate this in the first sticky post.
If a discussion strays from Wiki support, I suggest you simply "move" it to the appropriate forum here. That is, start a topic here quoting the relevant dialog, and then post a "Moved to PVD forum" link to the Wiki topic. The obvious exception to this rule would be where the forum is necessarily being used to facilitate a discussion between users of different languages. In that case, it might be appropriate to post invitations to join the discussion to the English and Russian PVD forums.
Sounds good to me. :)
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The PVD Wiki supports what are called structures, which is just a fancy term for associating wiki pages so that they can be read in a particular sequence (like a pamphlet or book). I've created a structure called 'PVD-Manual' which lays out wiki pages in a logical sequence that could be referenced like a manual. You can check the PVD-Manual out here -- http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php?page=PVD-Manual (http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php?page=PVD-Manual). Navigation icons for moving through the pages are available at the top of the page.
As content is updated they are automatically reflected in the PVD-Manual. However, for new pages, these need to be added to the structure in order to be reflected in the manual. Anybody is welcome to do this (and I'll try to check for new pages that should be added to the manual as I can).
Additionally, I've enabled a feature called 'Multiple Print'. You can find this under the Wiki menu. This feature allows you to select pages and/or structures for printing. So, for example, if you want to print the PVD-Manual, you can select the PVD-Manual structure and print the entire manual. If you have a PDF Printer installed, you can print the manual to a PDF file for reference. :) This feature is available for any page (or pages) you choose.
Wiki pages are already being updated to refect changes (and new features) that have been introduced with version 0.9.9.5 beta of PVD (such as support for remote database servers and permissions). These aren't in the PVD-Manual structure yet, but they will be soon. ;)
Hope you enjoy. ;D
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I think it's a good time to do some final updates to the Wiki, people ::)
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Nope. This time, we'll let the Russians write 'em, and we'll translate. ;D
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:)
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Search is not working well for me (It doesn't find any thing). Any others with similar problems?
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I refreshed the search index, and it seems okay now.
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I refreshed the search index, and it seems okay now.
Thanks, working much better for me now.