How do I deal with long-running documentary series?

[Gaco]

First off nice job with the PVD application. Your work is much appreciated


My whole use of PVD is cataloging documentary films that I have watched. I regularly watch new docs off my harddisk, and I want to be able to rate them and store this information. The idea is to have a database of all the docs I have seen, and be able to filter, group and search them. Especially important is it view a specific genre/tag/group (for example Science, Physics, Evolution, War etc., I use "categories" for this) and then sort them according to my own rating.

My big problem right now is with long running documentary series such as BBC Horizon or PBS Nova. These are designated as TV series in IMDB, therefore each documentary film in the series is an episode when importing the whole doc series off IMDB. Now when I rate an episode, I've found that it will not show up when do various kinds of searches and group-viewing. How do I deal with this?

I could decide to make them all movie entries instead of episodes, that would solve the problem of them not showing up in "grouping by categories" for example. But on the other hand the thing I love about PVD is how various information is fetched from IMDB directly to the entries. Is there any way do do this smart? Or any easy comprehensible feature that I can request and put on my features wishlist for the developers?



The only suggestion I can think of is to add a simple on/off option in preferences to include or exclude episodes from searches and groups? Now to distinct between independent episodes (such as Nova or Horizon) and episodes in (2-part, 3-part, 8-part or whatever) documentary miniseries, a filter could be made to view only entries with ratings - then "additional rating" could be used for episodes of the same coherent mini series, and ordinary "rating" could be used for long-running documentary series of wide ranging independent subjects?

[buah]

It would be good to take an example, and reproduce the problem step by step, including steps concerning searches/filtering.
Screenshoots would be also appreciated.

[Gaco]

Very well


This is my category list. I use it to add my own tags associated with genre and content in each of the documentaries. I have only just started, so I only have the categories needed for the movies I've seen so far, but I will add more as I need them:



Now lets try and group by category:



Which looks like this:



I then sort by rating and look under Science:



Even though I have given the episodes "No Ordinary Genius" (which are really independent from all the other documentaries in BBC's Horizon series) categories Science and Physics, it does not sure up under Science and Physics, but stay in "Undefined" because I have not categorized / put on genre tags on Horizon because it is impossible as each documentary in the series is a unique subject.





Another aspect of the same problem with the episodes is following:


When grouping by rating, the episodes does not show up under 6-8 which is where they belong with a rating of 8, but under "not rated" because I have not rated the Horizon series as a whole, which is impossible.



So you see, the big problem is that PVD treats all "TV series" as though you should be able to rate the series as a whole, and to specify it's genre as a whole, which in the case with normal TV series and documentary mini-series is totally possible, but not decade-longtime running documentary series such as BBC Horizon or PBS Nova. But these gets imported from IMDB as big-ass TV series with many, many episodes! I don't know what can be done or what the smartest thing is to do. The easiest thing in terms of easy of implementation would probably be my suggestion in the first post, although the best/most complete solution would be have PVD distinguish between two different kinds of movie series, the normal kind that is currently available, and a second kind, whose episodes have properties much more like single-movie-entries, just brought together under a single TV series name. Does this make sense?

[buah]

because I have not categorized / put on genre tags on Horizon because it is impossible as each documentary in the series is a unique subject.

I have only just started, so I only have the categories needed for the movies I've seen so far, but I will add more as I need them:

I think you gave the answer. Every time you assign a new unique category to an episode - assign it to a whole series. It's exactly 4 clicks more. PVD deserves it, believe me.

[Gaco]

because I have not categorized / put on genre tags on Horizon because it is impossible as each documentary in the series is a unique subject.

I have only just started, so I only have the categories needed for the movies I've seen so far, but I will add more as I need them:

I think you gave the answer. Every time you assign a new unique category to an episode - awssign it for a whole series. It's exactly 4 clicks more. PVD deserves it, believe me.

That's not the problem. Problem is, Horizon would show up in every search without showing which episodes actually had the tags/categories in question!


But what I think is the best solution came to me just a little earlier. I only have to sacrifice one thing, but it would solve all other problems. An added feature would be needed though, but I reckon it's not very hard to make: I will just add each Horizon episodes as single movie entities anyway instead of episode in a series. This way I cannot just use the "New Movie Master" on full auto because it will never find any Horizon docs on a IMDB search (because they are hidden away as episodes of Horizon (1964) as we know). All documentaries being part of cross-genre documetary series will have to do without IMDB as of right now. The feature I will then cross my fingers for is "force import IMDB link" so that I can just force import all movie data from a link (for example http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1087881/) on a movie entry. I still have to deal with each documentary individually so it wouldn't take up extra time each time! PVD would then have to associate a movie entry with a specific IMDB link so that it can easily be updated later with a simple "Import->[EN] Get movie info from IMDB.com".
In other words only use the TV series w. episodes structure on actual mini-series of documentaries, where it's episodes all lies within the same genre/topic. IMDB treats BBC Horizon and PBS Nova as a TV series with episodes, too bad, I'll have to it custom in PVD then. But it would still be nice to be able to download movie info manually off a URL into a movie entry!  

[buah]

That's not the problem. Problem is, Horizon would show up in every search without showing which episodes actually had the tags/categories in question!

1. If you then apply advanced search on a specific category, you'll get episodes with that category.

I will just add each Horizon episodes as single movie entities anyway instead of episode in a series.

2. Make a custom list field "Series", and assign to each episode containing series name entered in "Series" field, and you'll get what you need.

[nostra]

I was too lazy to read the whole topic, but do you have the "Filter episodes" option checked in Tools -> Preferences -> Movies?

[Gaco]

That's not the problem. Problem is, Horizon would show up in every search without showing which episodes actually had the tags/categories in question!

1. If you then apply advanced search on a specific category, you'll get episodes with that category.

Ok that's always something.. but actually the grouping by category is more of a problem

2. Make a custom list field "Series", and assign to each episode containing series name entered in "Series" field, and you'll get what you need.

I'm not sure what you mean, i don't see anywhere to create "custom list fields"? But in any case, I don't see that this should put episodes together with their corresponding groups when viewing by group (i.e. tree view)?

I was too lazy to read the whole topic, but do you have the "Filter episodes" option checked in Tools -> Preferences -> Movies?

Yes it is checked. The short story of the topic is this:

Background: IMDB is treating some very long series of documentaries (example: BBC Horizon, spanning a wide range of subjects) as a TV series with episodes, not individual movies. This is a problem in PVD because they don't necessarily share the same genre and are really independent documentary movies, just as my ratings are very different for each. I use "categories" to designate the sub-genre of the documentary films in my PVD. So when right-clicking and choosing "view by category" all the individual episodes from Horizon doesn't come out into the various categories, but stay under the same entry, namely Horizon. No matter which "View by..."I use, the episodes doesn't really show up in the right place (although in the case of search apparently you can make an advanced search among some specific category, though this doesn't solve the big problem).
Best solution right now: Therefore I have chosen to not import the documentary films directly via IMDB but just add them as seperate entries write in some info about them manually.
What I need: Although each documentary in the Horizon series can't be found in a search on IMBD because it's listed as an EPISODE for Horizon (1964), it does have a direct IMDB link. I need a way to manually force import IMDB info into an entry from a IMDB url (such as http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1087881/). IMDB episode webpages seems to share the same basic layout and info representations as IMDB move webpages, so it shouldn't be any trouble at all to make?

[buah]

1. What I meant was: assign every unique episode category to a containing series. Group by category. Then apply Advanced search on a specific category. You'll get episodes only of that specific category.

2. What I meant was: in Preferences-Custom items make a custom field of type "Select list" and name it "Series". If you decide to enter episodes as separate movie entries, and you're willing to manually enter every url, ensure that you set up IMDb plugin to over-wright Original Title, click Movie-New, than paste IMDb url in URL field (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1087881/ in this particular case), type "1", for instance, in Original title field, assign desired category to an episode in "Category" multi-select list field, type series name in "Series" field (Horizon, in this particular case) and press Import from IMDb button. You'll get episode displayed as a movie entry.
In Tools-Preferences-Movie-Tree View Nodes delete if any node. Then add Category, then add Series node. Click OK. Click View-Tree view (I'd avoid "Group by" command in this case). You'll get episodes sorted by category, sub-sorted by series.

Science
    --- Horizon
         ---- No Ordinary Genius, Part One

This is what I would do.

[nostra]

I need a way to manually force import IMDB info into an entry from a IMDB url (such as http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1087881/). IMDB episode webpages seems to share the same basic layout and info representations as IMDB move webpages, so it shouldn't be any trouble at all to make? Smiley

It should work if you add a movie give it a title and paste the right URL into the URL field, apply changes and run the IMDB plugin.

[rick.ca]

I was too lazy to read the whole topic, but do you have the "Filter episodes" option checked in Tools -> Preferences -> Movies?

Me too...

...and consider this food for thought, rather than concrete advice...

The IMDb isn't a very good source for documentaries, and I doubt it ever will be. It is, after all, a movie database. So, given your level of interest, you're probably putting a lot of effort into getting data "manually." If so, you might find downloading data from IMDb does more harm than good. Even if you take care to ensure it doesn't overwrite data you've acquired from elsewhere, you probably don't want bad data "polluting" the good. As a practical matter, you might want to use IMDb where it "works," and use other sources where they are better.

I don't know how typical Horizon is, but it makes an interesting example. As you've said, it's data on IMDb is a mess. I suppose the main problem is the lack of it, but I wouldn't trust anything that's there. On the other hand, a quick search finds several sources which must be of far greater interest to you. At TV.com, there's what appears to be a fairly comprehensive listing—by episode number—of 1,057 episodes since 1964. It appears this would at least provide a fairly complete record of episode titles and air dates. That may be all you want or need for older episodes (there's 1,057 of them!). The BBC should be a much better source for more recent episodes. And it appears there may be coverage of earlier episodes at the BFI—which has 848 episode entries. None of these sources are going to have everything you may want. But together, they certainly have far better data than the IMDb.

The TV.com list caught my attention, BTW, because it's something that can be easily imported. Unfortunately, it's not possible to import episode data into PVD. But it seems you've recognized you may be better off not using the series feature for other reasons. That may be a good thing, because you can import anything (including custom fields) to a movie record. This capability may be very important if this method of importing data is the only one available to you.

The attached screen shot illustrates several things. First, I was able to import the entire series (episode number, title, air date, year and URL's). Don't be misled by the one episode showing—it's the only one with additional information. But most of that was easy to add. I imported the available IMDb URL's (289). As nostra says, those can be imported normally with the plugin (i.e., it doesn't care they are episode records). I imported the BFI URL's. Those provide a direct link to a synopsis which I cut & paste into the Tagline field. The description comes from the BBC site, but that appears to be a lost cause. The only site I've ever seen that's more of a hopeless mess is the CBC. Public broadcasters!

Anyway, my point is this might be a way to easily establish a framework for an entire series, and provide links to online information. That would provide an overview, a place to attach existing media and a start on where find further information—that you might add manually for the relative few you're most interested in.


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[Gaco]

Thank you for your thoughts everyone!
buah: I see!
nostra: That way to import does work, nice!
rick.ca: I will look at some of these the alternative sources later for sure!

I will try out some of these things tonight and see how works best for me. Will write back once I settle on a particular solution

[buah]

Gaco,

I hope you caught how to avoid manual entering of each url.

[Gaco]

After thinking a good deal about this, I've decided that storing Horizon programs as episodes in any way isn't satisfactory. It may be the "correct" way to do it since it technically is a TV series, but in practice it's too inconvenient to have all the episodes hidden away first under the entry "Horizon" and then season or year. It doesn't give an easy overview of the episodes and thereby defeats a good deal of the reason of why I use PVD for my documentary hobby in the first place; this is especially a problem because Horizon has so many seasons/years!
So creating a new movie entry, plugging in a URL and then importing info is the way I'm going to go.

Only question that remains is which links that will work to import. rick.ca how did you import info from BFI? I'm thinking on just doing a bit of "charity work" for IMDB and update every Horizon doc I see with info from other websites anyway..

buah: Doing the entries manually is what I'm planning right now. Just to clarify, I will only add in those documentaries that I have watched and out of the 1000+ of total episodes, only ~150 of them are "available" (torrent networks). So since my basic need is to click off movies as "seen this date" and rate them one at a time, it doesn't really concern me if I have to use a couple of minutes every time to import manually via URL since I'll only have to do that once few weeks on average, so np

[rick.ca]

rick.ca how did you import info from BFI?

I cut & paste it's listing of all episodes into Excel, converted the links to text, parsed all the data to separate fields, and then imported that into PVD. The attached worksheet illustrates this. If you wish to use it, convert all cells to values, delete the first column, and then configure the Excel import plugin to import the remaining columns.

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