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PVD Wiki is now online!
cwdean:
I've added a wiki page called "How to translate Wiki pages" (http://www.nimidia.com/pvd_wiki/tiki-index.php?page=How+to+translate+Wiki+pages&bl=y) to help provide guidance on translating wiki pages. This link is accessible from the HomePage.
Hope this is helpful. :)
rick.ca:
--- Quote ---In the mean time, I just found a new support forum for PVD.
--- End quote ---
Trying to read and understand such a translation seems to demonstrate...
--- Quote ---all posts need to be automatically translated
--- End quote ---
...is not feasible. Unless your goal is to start WWIII. ;)
--- Quote ---is going to take significant input from nostra to achieve
--- End quote ---
...which is completely counter-productive. This is something for the user community to resolve—with a primary objective being to relieve an over-worked and under-paid developer of the responsibility so he can focus on... development.
rick.ca:
--- Quote ---Looks like I've somehow stirred up a hornet's nest.
--- End quote ---
Hey, we're movie buffs. Today it's drama, tomorrow it's comedy... :( :D
As for the rest of your post, I agree completely. I appreciate both your intent, and all the effort you've put into this.
I'm not sure about the Tikipedia theme (except for the logo, of course ;) )—while more pleasing overall, I wonder if it will be more difficult because the details don't stand out as well. How do you find it from a maintenance point-of-view? Are all the same features there? Does it require a lot of things to be changed so it works?
patch:
--- Quote from: rick.ca on March 19, 2009, 09:40:19 pm ---The other is to find some way to get the two groups communicating, and ask them to work out their differences.
....
But perhaps there's a user who is fluent in Russian and English who ... provide a translation of each message. I don't know if this is an option in SMF, but it might be the type of forum where nothing is posted until it is "approved" by the moderator (in this case, in order to add the translation).... A moderator could easily be overwhelmed with this sort of arrangement. But it might work if there were limits placed on topics discussed, and perhaps on the number of posts (although requiring moderator approval would put a damper on that).
--- End quote ---
While this approach maybe adaptable to a Wiki where posts are mostly of high value, it is contrary to the requirements of an online forum. IMO an online forum thrives on people asking dumb questions, if asked once there is usually someone more experienced who offers a helpful response, if repeatedly asked it highlights an interface issue which the more experienced have become blind to.
As such most posts on the forum are not worth translating but everyone having a feel for the issues being discussed across the entire PVD community, and feeling free to ask stupid questions is extremely valuable.
--- Quote from: rick.ca on March 20, 2009, 09:05:36 pm ---
--- Quote ---In the mean time, I just found a new support forum for PVD.
--- End quote ---
Trying to read and understand such a translation seems to demonstrate...
--- Quote ---all posts need to be automatically translated
--- End quote ---
...is not feasible. Unless your goal is to start WWIII. ;)
--- End quote ---
On this we disagree.
I agree reading the translated forum feels foreign, but that is only to be expected given I just walked into a forum with
Members: 1864 • Posts: 5218 • Topics: 331
Rather than the one I was familiar with
Members: 1116 • Posts: 3727 • Topics: 588
Clearly it would be expected to take some time to recognise the contributors knowledge / personality and the issues addressed by the community.
However looking through the posts I do get a fairly good impression of the issues being discussed and who writes constructive post.
--- Quote from: rick.ca on March 20, 2009, 09:05:36 pm ---
--- Quote ---is going to take significant input from nostra to achieve
--- End quote ---
...which is completely counter-productive. This is something for the user community to resolve—with a primary objective being to relieve an over-worked and under-paid developer of the responsibility so he can focus on... development.
--- End quote ---
On this we partly agree. nostra can delegate to the degree he is comfortable with but should still be in control. Unfortunately management takes time even when well set up and your workers are keen.
The interface I would like to see is a multilingual forum and Wiki. I should be able to specify my language and all posts and Wiki pages should be displayed in my native language (with the option to view the untranslated post at the click of a button).
Within the forum environment that would mean an untranslated thread could have posts in many languages, but all would be machine translated to each users native language.
With in the Wiki environment a combination of machine and human translation is appropriate as the posts are inherently of higher value. I would like to see a human translation of the current version of each wiki page when available.If not a machine translated version of the most recent issue of the page or the last human translated English version of the page (toggle between).
--- Quote from: cwdean on March 20, 2009, 04:00:11 pm ---The reason I chose TikWiki is because of it's feature-set and tight functional integration. With the flip of one configuration option, I can turn on Forums, Articles, Blogs, File Galleries, Photo Galleries, etc. -- and each feature set is complete and fully integrated with every other feature set. Right now, the only requirement is the need for a Wiki...so that is all that is turned on (and file gallery). But as the community evolved I wanted to be prepared to support it.
--- End quote ---
cwdean could TikWiki support the type of interface I have described. Alternatively are you or someone else aware of software that could. If software was available which would assist in bringing the communities together, then perhaps nostra may choose to delegate the upgrade to the PVD forum (& Wiki).
rick.ca:
--- Quote ---While this approach maybe adaptable to a Wiki where posts are mostly of high value, it is contrary to the requirements of an online forum.
--- End quote ---
My suggestion is in no way intended to address the "requirements of an online forum." It is for one special-purpose forum (among the many on the board). Its sole purpose would be to provide a communication link between the two groups.
--- Quote ---However looking through the posts I do get a fairly good impression of the issues being discussed and who writes constructive post.
--- End quote ---
You've already demonstrated a method for translating foreign-language web pages so you can read them. I agree, one can get a vague idea of what is being discussed. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I find it difficult to imagine machine-translation facilitating actual communication between participants of different languages—especially on technical issues. Can you provide examples of software-support forums that work this way?
--- Quote ---nostra can delegate to the degree he is comfortable with but should still be in control. Unfortunately management takes time even when well set up and your workers are keen.
--- End quote ---
Effective management has nothing to do with control or time. The best possible situation nostra could wish for is a healthy, vibrant user community that takes care of itself.
--- Quote ---Within the forum environment that would mean an untranslated thread could have posts in many languages, but all would be machine translated to each users native language.
--- End quote ---
Okay, maybe I can imagine this—on the basis there are always many conversations going on, and users already decide which ones they want to participate in. So if one chooses not to participate in a Russian conversation because they're unsure of the translation, that's no different than not participating because it's too technical, or simply not a topic of interest.
So if that is a viable option, all the more reason we should try to establish a dialog between the two groups.
However... it doesn't look like SMF offers a solution. I was searching their forum—without luck—and then came across the Language Specific Support section of their forum. This is a collection of child forums for different languages. If that's how they handle multiple languages, I doubt SMF will do it your way.
--- Quote ---I would like to see a human translation of the current version of each wiki page when available. If not a machine translated version of the most recent issue of the page or the last human translated English version of the page (toggle between).
--- End quote ---
The TikiWiki designers apparently agree with me—machine translation is not an effective substitute for human translation. In keeping with the very nature and purpose of a wiki, users are expected to add pages in their own language. Even if understandable, the existence of machine-generated page would discourage them from doing so. They can, however, almost instantly view a machine translation of a page in the editor—where, of course, they are expected to "clean it up" for the benefit of other users of their language. Our wiki already has all the pages written by cwdean translated into Russian.
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